MUD GALLERY: GENERATIVE ART IN CHINA

Wu Yishen: Founded in 2018, MUD Gallery is a space dedicated to the presentation and promotion of a diverse range of ancient world artifacts and contemporary art, with a particular focus on the modern transformation of classical Asian aesthetics. Shortly after its establishment, we started to prepare our MUDigital project, which I believe is the right way for the gallery to mirror the internet progression. We are increasingly aware of the importance of serious digital art for the global present and future.

你好，Anika，很高兴接受你的采访。泥轩空间成立于2018年，空间致力于呈现和推广各类世界古代文物与当代艺术结合的展示活动，其中尤其以亚洲古典审美的现代转化为主要方向。在成立之后不久，我们的MUDigital部门开始筹备，对于画廊整体来说，这是最完美的映照互联网时代的方式。我们越来越意识到严肃的计算机艺术对于全球当下和未来的重要性。

YW: Our gallery is located in the M50 art district in Shanghai, an area that has always had a strong contemporary art scene here. We are surrounded by many galleries, and also the non-profit new media art organization, Chronus Art Center, as our neighbor.

我们的画廊坐落于上海的艺术园区M50，这片区域一直是上海当代艺术氛围浓厚的区域，我们周围有很多艺术画廊，我们楼下还有一家非盈利新媒体艺术机构CAC，这对于我们空间来说是个不错的位置。

YW: In China, our family has hundreds of years of experience in art collection. Both my great-grandfather (Hufan WU) and great-great-grandfather (Dacheng WU) were important artists and collectors. Chinese classical aesthetics has always been the core of our family.

On the other hand, as many western scholars know, the aesthetics of Zen, accompanied by the progress of science, technology, and civilization, have always continued to evolve into new forms. Thus, in the current era, we never stop to think about and explore new possibilities.

Computer art, especially generative art, became one of the genres that we have been particularly interested in in the past few years. We are very fortunate that some of the early maestros of computer art have artworks related to the concept of Tai Chi, calligraphy, or Chinese landscape painting, which further enhances our determination to introduce these works to the Chinese audience. We are also trying to do more for the Chinese generative art, to provide a better environment for the local generative art community, and to bring in international exchanges.

在中国，我们家族有数百年的收藏经验，我的曾祖父和太高祖都是知名的收藏家和艺术家。中国古典美学一直是我们家族的核心关注点，另一方面，正如很多西方学者所了解的这样，东方禪的美学，始终伴随人类的科技和文明的进步不断的转化成新的形态，所以，在当下的时代，我们不断的思考和拓展更多的可能性，计算机艺术尤其是生成艺术，成了我们这几年特别关注的类型之一，特别有幸的是部分早期计算机艺术大师的作品都有和太极、书法或山水等等相关的表达，这就更加增进了我们希望为中国观众引入这些作品的想法，另一方面，我们也希望为中国生成艺术做更多事，为本土的生成艺术群体提供更好的发展环境，增进国际交流。

YW: During my high school years, math was my biggest hobby. I first read about fractals and generative art from Qi Dongxu's publication from the 1990s, and Hans Dehlinger was probably the first European generative artist I learned about from the book. While I was in college in the early 2000s, I came across personal websites of many excellent generative artists and also exhibitions of Casey Reas.

At that time, Flash AS was a very dominant software, and Processing was just in the beta stage but already had quite mature works. I created close to twenty works at that time and participated in the 2006 exhibition EXPANDING TURNS, which was one of the early gallery art exhibitions in China that included generative art. Coincidentally, the location of MUD today is exactly the address where I participated in the 2006 exhibition, so it is my honor to pass on this heritage.

To me, there is always something very sincere in the work of early computer artists, as before the Web1 era, all computer creators around the world were in a very pure state; academia and open source were probably the consensus at that time. Because of my personal involvement, I know indeed that this was an excellent group and era, and genuine art could make everything better. So I am dedicated to sharing early computer art with everyone. I hope that more systematic collections of early computer art can emerge in China, and I believe that this is an important foundation for this genre to take root in China's art scene.

在我中学时期，数学是我最大的爱好，90年代在齐东旭先生的著作中，我第一次看到了有关分型和生成艺术的内容，Hans Dehlinger可能是我第一个了解到的欧洲生成艺术家。在2000年初期，我大学期间，通过互联网我看到了许多优秀生成艺术作者的个人网站，还有类似惠特尼美术馆给Casey reas先生做的展览，当时Flash AS是非常主流的形式，Processing刚刚在测试阶段，但已经有相当成熟的作品。我当时创作了接近20件作品并参加了2006年的“扩张的转折”展览，这是中国早期收录生成艺术的画廊艺术展览之一，很巧的是，今天泥轩的位置，正是2006年我参加展览的地址，所以，我们将在原来的位置继续迎接大家的到来。早期计算机艺术家的作品中有一种特别真诚的东西，因为在Web1时代之前，全球所有计算机创作者都处于非常纯粹的状态。原创、学术和开源是当时圈内的共识，因为亲身经历，所以我很了解这是非常美妙的群体和年代，真正的艺术，可以让一切更加美好。所以我特别愿意向大家分享早期计算机艺术的部分。我希望中国可以出现更多系统性早期计算机艺术收藏，我相信这也是这个类型能在中国严肃艺术领域生根发芽的重要基础。

YW: My generation grew up with computers and video games. In the 2000s, computer-generated visuals meant ideals and unknowns to me. Today, they are an increasingly important part. The world created by humans and computers needs to be explored thoroughly before the age of robotics fully arrives.

首先，我意识到我们这代人是伴随计算机和游戏长大的。在2000年左右，他们对我来说意味着理想和未知。对今天而言，他们是越来越重要的部分，一份由人类和计算机共同创造的庞大数据库需要被梳理，在机器人时代到来之前。

YW: First of all, the Chinese language is very different from European languages. We still use hieroglyphics, which create very different thought patterns. Computer language differs from all natural languages, but it is closer to English or mathematical equations.

This uniqueness presents an additional challenge for creators of generative art in China, as they must master different linguistic logics simultaneously. Moreover, the binary form is very familiar to us, reminiscent of the Zhou Yi. Thus, I place great importance on the unique content of ancient Chinese mathematics and aesthetics, especially poetry and calligraphy, which I believe resonate the most with generative art and plotter works.

首先我们国家的自然语言和欧洲非常不同，我们依然使用象形文字，语言会使人的思维方式产生非常不同的形态。计算机语言不同于所有自然语言，但他更接近英语或者数学方程式，这使得在中国的生成艺术创作者会有更加独特的地方，他们必须同时掌握更多的自然语言方式。另外，计算机的二进制形式会令我们非常亲切，这让我们想起我们古老的周易，我本人会更加关注古代中国数学和美学中的独特内容，对我来说诗歌和书法，无疑是所有类型中最让我觉得会和生成艺术和绘图仪产生共鸣的部分。

YW: China has a unique cultural history and social status quo. But we are having a better educational environment, and more younger people are developing interest in digital art. I gave a lecture introducing the history of generative art at the Central Academy of Fine Arts last year, and the young people liked it a lot. To be honest, our perception and collection of generative art are still in the beginning stages.

China is a very large country with a large population, so I don't want my focus to be interpreted as the themes and tropes of the community, which is by no means not sufficient to present the whole picture. So at the moment, what I am doing is introducing more artists and pioneers to China, especially those who are related to China. I think it is a way to help extend our research on the history of Chinese computer art, which will be super helpful for the development of the local community.

中国有独特的文化历史和社会现状，我们拥有越来越好的教育环境，现在越来越多的院校和年轻人对生成艺术产生兴趣，去年我在央美做了一场介绍生成艺术历史的讲座，年轻人普遍都非常喜欢。从整体来看，我们对于计算机艺术和生成艺术的了解和收藏还在刚刚开始的阶段。中国是个人口大国，所以，我不希望自己关注的部分被理解成“主题路线”，因为这绝不足以呈现整体的全貌。在当下这个时间段，我很愿意为大家引入更多早期生成艺术家，尤其是那些和中国更加相关的部分，因为在我看来，在全球计算机艺术史的背景中逐步梳理华人计算机艺术的历史，是非常切实而有效的方式，这将有利于将来的发展。

YW: Morphologically, the development of computer art in China will definitely be more relevant to China's history and social status. I believe with better art education for younger generations and community development, great artists will surely emerge. I expect that we can create more original content that is beneficial to the shared future of mankind.

从形态上看，中国计算机艺术的发展一定会和中国的历史和社会现状更相关，在更好的教育条件下，一定会出现一些天才，我们期待中国能向世界输出更多有益于人类命运共同体的原创内容。

YW: This question holds significant importance from a collecting standpoint, particularly concerning digital art. I strongly advocate for increased collaboration among artists and collectors in addressing this issue, as it is a crucial aspect of preserving the history of computer art. Artists creating digital art should have the freedom to choose the mediums through which they present their work. Throughout history, museums and artists have showcased numerous successful examples using various mediums.

However, as times evolve, it becomes essential to establish a more reliable system, especially for preserving high-quality content. Can we provide a more equitable, fair, and enduring commitment in the long term? Affirmations for digital art are essential, and it is imperative that creators and collectors honor their commitments. We need increased transparency and involvement from galleries and institutions. Prints can sometimes be misleading, particularly in the art market, yet they remain a crucial form of computer art creation. In general, I prioritize respecting the creator's intentions and am open to accepting various forms of computer art when the artist provides their signature and authorization.

从收藏角度来说，这是个很重要的问题，尤其对于电子艺术来说，我很希望更多艺术家创作者和收藏家可以共同参与到这部分内容中来，这也是分享计算机艺术史的重要部分。不同的电子艺术创作者有权选择不同的呈现方式，在各个历史阶段，美术馆和艺术家已经提出了不少优秀的成功方案。伴随时代的发展，我们如何构建一套更加可靠的制度，尤其是真正接近“艺术品”的那些高质量内容，从更长远的角度来看，我们是否可以给出更加合理公平的有效承诺？对于数字艺术，我们认为有些申明是必须的，希望创作者和收藏家都可以信守承诺，我们比以往更需要公正，更多画廊和机构应该参与其中。印刷品是很容易让人困惑的问题，尤其对于画廊这个行业来说，但这确实是计算机艺术创作中很重要的一种形态，在一般情况下，我倾向于尊重创作者的意愿，在艺术家本人签署授权的情况下，我可以接受各种计算机艺术的形态。

YW: Output with "new" thinking. Of course, it will be difficult to judge. "New" is related to the original intention and, at the same time, related to history; thus, it requires more information and time to validate. At the same time, I’m concerned that as time goes by, many comparisons and opinions may become more and more blurred. That is also why I think it is important to promote early generative art nowadays, where the significance of early computer artworks should be highlighted, compared to the ambiguous content in terms of originality. For creators who want to become serious artists, originality should be one of the necessary pursuits and goals.

带有“新”思考的输出，当然，这一点会比较难判断，“新”和创作初衷有关，同时和历史有关，检验需要更多信息和时间。而且我们更担心，伴随时间的推移，许多对比和观点都可能会变得越来越模糊。在我看来，这也是我们今天重视早期生成艺术的意义，相比更多在原创方面比较模糊的内容，早期计算机艺术代表作品显著的历史意义应该得以凸显。对于希望成为严肃计算机艺术家的创作者来说，原创应该是必要的追求和目标之一

YW: In recent years, AI has undoubtedly been one of the hottest topics in the tech world. After Eugene Goostman's robot passed the Turing Test for the first time in 2014, various AI-related topics became more prevalent. The AlphaGo vs. Lee Sedol match in Asia in 2016 had a significant impact. By around 2018, GANs (Generative Adversarial Networks) rapidly gained prominence in the development of generative art, attracting many important generative artists to the field. Some new creators among them established this as their trademark.

The significant proliferation of AI tools in recent years has ushered in a new era of creative possibilities. In the tech world, new technologies have always been an unavoidable focus, and they are likely to grow in importance. Globally, there is a need for the entire history of computer art to be better integrated into a system that the public can understand and appreciate, with the hope that more exceptional works will find their way into museums and galleries. For the general public, attaining a deeper understanding may take time, but every journey must begin somewhere, and now is the best time to start. We aim to provide better opportunities for Chinese enthusiasts and artists to showcase and appreciate their work, with the hope that the world will pay greater attention to these outstanding Chinese digital artists.

最近几年，AI无疑是整个科技界最热门的话题之一，在2014年尤金·古斯特曼（Eugene Goostman）机器人第一次通过了“图灵测试”之后，人们陆续可以看到各种和AI相关的话题，在亚洲2016年AlphaGo和李世石的对决影响很大，差不多在2018年前后，GAN（生成对抗网络）创作迅速占据了生成艺术发展中的大片区域，很多非常重要的生成艺术家都参与到这类创作中来，也有一些新的创作者，一开始就以此为标志。当然，最近两年AI工具大规模爆发，又使得整个创作可能性发生了新的的转变，在科技领域新技术一直就是不可忽视的类型，我相信他们一定会变得越来越重要。对全球观众来说，整个计算机艺术的历史都需要有更好的方式连接成系统让大众去了解和接受，希望能有更多优秀的作品可以进入博物馆和美术馆。对更多人来说，深入的了解可能还需要时间，但凡事总需要一个开始，而最佳的时机往往就是现在。我们为中国的爱好者和艺术家提供更好的展示和欣赏条件，也希望世界可以更多的关注一些优秀的中国电子艺术家。

YW: Personally, regardless of the genre I am exploring, I tend to gravitate towards works from relatively early periods. I long for the earlier years of the 2000s when there existed a pure and uncommercialized atmosphere of creativity worldwide, akin to the realm of painting and other traditional art forms, which further fuels my passion for creation. This sentiment seems to be a common thread across various art disciplines' early stages.

The generative arts before the 1980s may not have possessed the technical sophistication of later iterations, but they exuded a unique flavor absent in subsequent generations. This type of appreciation resonates closely with ancient Chinese literati painting and has seamlessly integrated into my life. Simultaneously, I hold great admiration for creators who have attained exceptional levels of perfection. There truly exist artists who wield various tools with such mastery, and I believe that such works deserve to reach a broader audience's eyes.

我个人的话，无论哪种类型，首先会更多的关注创作时期相对更早的作品，我非常怀念2000年初期的美好岁月，当时全世界各地的创作都有一种非常纯净无功利的气质，就如绘画和别的传统艺术门类一样，这会让我更加喜爱创作这件事，在所有艺术门类中，相对早期的部分似乎都有这种共性，80年代之前的生成艺术并没有之后那么复杂的技术，但是他们的韵味也是之后的类型所完全没有的。这种欣赏理念和古代中国文人画的趣味有非常接近的部分，这完全融入了我的生活。不过同时我也非常欣赏完成度非常高的创作者们，竟然真的有人可以把各种工具运用到如此程度，我认为这类作品的典型也很需要让更多观众看到。

YW: If this refers to the output of AI tools that have emerged recently, I found it very intriguing at that time. However, there are many outputs that I may find challenging to accept, and some of them are even difficult to embrace, possibly due to my personal biases.

如果是指最近出现的AI工具输出的话，我当时觉得很有趣，不过有很多输出，对我来说可能并不是十分容易接受，有些甚至很难接受，这或许是我还是带有个人的偏见。

YW: It hasn't changed much compared to before. However, I have come across some talented creators, such as Niceaunties, in this exhibition. Skilled creators can uphold high standards with great precision. Therefore, it still requires the artist's touch. I believe that the fusion of ideas and preferences will become particularly crucial when creating art in this field.

和之前相比并没有太大变化，但我已经看到了一些优秀的创作者，比如这次展览的中的Niceaunties，优秀的作者可以将水准控制到很高的位置，所以，现在还是需要艺术家来完成，我认为在这个领域做艺术的话，思维和品味的结合将会变得尤为重要。

YW: AI creation is still a new concept for Chinese collectors, but AI is rapidly advancing in China. Last year, I had the honor of delivering a lecture on generative art at the Central Academy of Fine Arts (CAFA), where I witnessed a significant number of students incorporating AI tools into their daily creative processes. I aspire for more young individuals to take notice of this exhibition, as I aim to connect with and understand them through this showcase.

创作对于中国藏家来说，还是一个新鲜事物，但AI在中国发展的速度非常迅速，去年我有幸在央美（CAFA）做了一场有关生成艺术的讲座，我看到大量学校中的学生，现在每天都在使用AI工具来做各种创作，所以我希望能有更多年轻人关注这场展览，希望能够了解他们对这场展览的看法。

YW: AI is still in a nascent stage at the moment, so it's perfectly fine to delve into it if you're adept at navigating these types of new tools. Regarding the question itself, if people still seek a better answer, I believe we can all attempt to ask AI.

我相信现在AI还在一个初级阶段，所以，如果你非常善于驾驭这类新的工具，完全可以尽情投入。至于这个问题本身，如果大家还想得到更好的答案，我想我们不如都去尝试问问AI。

ChatGPT: Predicting the future is always challenging, but based on current trends, it is likely that artists working with AI will continue to push the boundaries of creativity and innovation. Here are some potential predictions for the future of artists working with AI:

Increased Adoption: More artists will likely incorporate AI tools and techniques into their creative processes as these tools become more accessible and user-friendly.

Diverse Art Forms: Artists will explore new and diverse art forms enabled by AI, leading to the emergence of novel styles and genres that blend human creativity with machine intelligence.

Collaboration between Humans and AI: Collaboration between artists and AI systems will become more common, with artists using AI as a tool to enhance their creative output rather than replace human creativity.

Ethical and Legal Challenges: As AI-generated art becomes more prevalent, ethical and legal questions surrounding ownership, authorship, and copyright of AI-generated artworks will need to be addressed.

Artificial Creativity: There may be debates and discussions about whether AI systems can truly be creative or if they are simply mimicking human creativity. This could lead to philosophical discussions about the nature of art and creativity.

New Art Markets: The rise of AI art could lead to the creation of new art markets and platforms specifically dedicated to AI-generated artworks, attracting collectors and enthusiasts interested in this emerging form of art.

Impact on Society: AI art may have a broader impact on society, influencing cultural norms, challenging traditional notions of art, and sparking conversations about the intersection of technology and creativity.